Word Matters · Brandon Smith and Trevin Wax

A Word Matters Reunion with Brandon and Trevin

December 2, 2022·53 min·3 clips

Brandon and Trevin recall being called the 'theological podfathers' when they started one of the first theological podcasts in 2015.

Brandon Smith opens by reminiscing with Trevin Wax about their years working together at Lifeway in Nashville, where they collaborated on the Christian Standard Bible translation and co-hosted the Word Matters podcast starting in 2015. They note that someone once called them the 'theological podfathers,' a title they embrace given how early they entered the theological podcasting space. The conversation turns to Wax's new book, Thrill of Orthodoxy, which Smith describes as useful for thoughtful laypeople, pastors implementing creeds in church life, and anyone thinking about liturgy and theology. Wax explains that the book's central premise is that orthodoxy is not a personal construct but the received faith of the church, summed up in the creeds, something that remakes the believer rather than being made by them. He identifies two main cultural threats to orthodoxy: active pulls toward false doctrine and subtler pulls away from caring about doctrine at all, in favor of pure pragmatism or social activism. Wax outlines four specific drift patterns: seeking novelty out of spiritual dryness, pragmatic drift toward 'just love God and love people,' chronic unsettledness with difficult doctrines, and displacement of the cross by a righteous cause. He draws on C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters to illustrate how Christianity can become a means to an end rather than the end itself. A key chapter in the book, which Wax discusses at length, argues that heresies are actually narrow, not broad, because they consistently reduce Christian doctrine from 'both/and' to 'either/or.' Using the example of Christ's inclusive call and exclusive claim to salvation, Wax argues that holding both together — not just one — is what made early Christianity explosive and threatening to Rome. Smith adds that Origen made a similar argument to Celsus, noting that Christianity was simultaneously philosophically rigorous and accessible to the illiterate. The hosts discuss the Nicene controversy, noting that orthodoxy survived despite Roman emperors like Constantius openly favoring Arianism, and that Athanasius was exiled multiple times while still prevailing. Wax connects this history to his new podcast, Reconstructing Faith, which is documentary-style and addresses the current deconstruction conversation. He argues that the church faces a perfect storm of cultural pressure and exposed institutional corruption, and uses the metaphor of gutting a flood-damaged house to the studs to describe the reconstruction task. He criticizes conservatives for defending rot to protect institutions and progressives for demolishing load-bearing walls, arguing the real skill is distinguishing between the two. Smith raises the Lifeway and Ligonier State of Theology surveys as evidence of widespread theological confusion, but suggests the credibility crisis — people losing trust in church leaders — is a more immediate driver of people walking away from orthodoxy than intellectual doubts about the Trinity. Wax clarifies that pursuing credibility does not mean seeking popularity or softening the gospel, but rather ensuring that the church's conduct matches its confession, citing Peter, Paul, Jesus, and Leslie Newbigin's concept of the church as the hermeneutic of the gospel. Both hosts conclude that the early church's example — Justin, Tertullian, and Irenaeus making a compelling case to emperors that Christians were upstanding citizens with consistent theology and morality — shows that doctrine and conduct have never been separable.

As heard by us

A warm, church-history-minded conversation about orthodoxy as living faith, not museum theology.

Brandon and Trevin Wax use their Word Matters reunion to make a warm, historically alert case for orthodoxy. The conversation looks back on their years together around the Christian Standard Bible and then turns to Wax's Thrill of Orthodoxy, asking why sound theology should…

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Why you'd press play

A warm reunion conversation that uses church history and orthodoxy to sharpen how you think about Jesus and the Bible.

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