Fly on the Wall Podcast With Chris Sonksen · Church Boom

207 | Leadership Pain, Loyalty, and Finding the Right Leaders

April 1, 2026·31 min·3 clips

Chris Sonksen explains why leadership pain is inevitable, comparing it to Jesus being denied by Peter and betrayed by Judas.

The episode begins with host Chris Sonksen introducing the Fly on the Wall podcast and promoting Church Boom University. He then starts a coaching session with Ryan, who raises the issue of leadership pain, specifically feeling betrayed when people he invests in leave. Chris responds by normalizing this pain, citing biblical examples like Peter and Judas to illustrate that even Jesus faced betrayal. He advises Ryan to first ask if there's any truth to criticisms from those who leave, then evaluate if his own behavior might drive people away, sharing a story about a pastor who wasn't pastoral and lost staff. Chris emphasizes the need for a tough skin and soft heart, accepting that hurt is part of leadership. He shifts to preventive measures, stressing the importance of identifying core values—innate traits like outreach or family—before bringing leaders into the inner circle, using his own mismatch with a team member who opposed multi-site growth as an example. Ryan asks how to identify the right leaders from the start, and Chris recommends creating a profile that separates performance (skills like building teams) from behavior (core values, attitude). He suggests discovering core values by asking close associates what you care about most and what annoys you in leaders. Chris warns against being enamored by talent alone, advocating for a balance with core values. Ryan then asks about handling members who want roles they're not capable of, and Chris uses a comedian's analogy about kids' art to discuss the delicate process of redirecting them, ultimately being clear about not seeing their gifting. The conversation turns to leader development, with Chris explaining that leadership circles are for sifting and sorting candidates, much like sports scouting, to find those with both talent and teachability. He highlights the danger of high talent with low self-awareness and stresses that pastors must model teachability by seeking coaching themselves. Chris concludes by reinforcing that leaders attract what they are, so growth is essential, and ends the session with thanks and a reminder about Church Boom University.

As heard by us

Talent matters, but shared values and behavior decide whether someone fits the team.

It keeps the leadership question grounded in practical judgment rather than theory. Chris frames the problem around what to value in a leader when talent, loyalty, and values do not line up.

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Why you'd press play

When you need a coach's way to spot leaders who have talent but miss your core values.

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