Wandelwerker - Der erste deutsche Arbeitsschutz Podcast · WandelWerker Consulting GmbH

#413 Wie interne Audits nach ISO 45001 Unternehmen voranbringen

·46 min·4 clips

Sören Nussbaum reveals how internal ISO 45001 audits can break the cycle of stagnant workplace accident numbers.

1. Wandelwerker Podcast episode 413 interviews Sören Nussbaum, safety engineer and lead auditor at a German energy company, on how to conduct internal ISO 45001 audits that deliver real improvement. 2. Nussbaum became a safety engineer by searching studieren.de after his Zivildienst year, studied at Wuppertal alongside host Anna, and later qualified as an ISO 14001 and ISO 45001 lead auditor after moving from waste water management to energy supply. 3. The episode's core question is how to overcome the near-universal negative image of internal audits among employees and turn the process into something that creates genuine shared value. 4. Nussbaum explains the root cause of audit anxiety: arriving to ask people things that feel obvious to them resembles a school exam, and employees fear being personally assessed rather than understanding that the organisation's processes are under review. 5. His primary recommendation is that auditors must make at least one personal phone call before the audit — not just send an email — to explain that the audit evaluates management systems and processes, and that no individual will be blamed for systemic findings. 6. He notes a secondary source of anxiety in external certification audits, where auditors from DQS or similar bodies are stricter and more threatening than internal auditors, and where the auditee has little power to influence the process. 7. For internal audits, by contrast, the organisation has significant control over method, tone, and scope within the norm's requirements, and this flexibility is the main opportunity to create value. 8. Nussbaum distinguishes checklist auditing from dialogue auditing: checklist auditing confirms that documents exist and moves on, while dialogue auditing asks workers about their actual hazards and uncovers whether processes reflect reality. 9. He demonstrates with a specific scenario: asking 'what are your three main daily hazards?' opens a conversation that can reveal whether risk assessments are consulted, whether workers have input into them, and whether preventive measures match actual risks. 10. He argues that if a worker's answer leads to discovering that the risk assessment has never really been updated or acted upon, this is the most valuable finding an audit can produce — and it would never emerge from a checklist tick. 11. Nussbaum connects this to psychological safety: for dialogue auditing to work, workers must feel safe to say something that might reflect badly on the department, which is only possible if they believe the auditor is genuinely there to help and not to prosecute. 12. He recommends explicitly stating at the start of the audit, and again in the opening conversation, that corrections will focus on processes rather than blaming individuals. 13. On finding improvement potential during the audit itself, Nussbaum advocates for co-developing solutions on-site in a conversation, not prescribing corrections — this ensures the improvement rationale is understood and the people responsible feel ownership. 14. He identifies the worst outcome as implementing measures purely to satisfy the audit report without the people involved understanding why — which produces paper compliance and no real safety improvement. 15. For multi-site organisations (his own company has distributed locations across Germany), he stresses that best practices uncovered at one site should be communicated to all relevant sites rather than filed in a single site's protocol. 16. On post-audit follow-through, Nussbaum recommends named responsibilities with explicit deadlines, and digital reminder systems — Outlook planners, M365 reminders, or specialist software — rather than paper or passive Excel files. 17. He also recommends a check after measures are implemented to confirm that the measure actually solves the problem, since some implemented measures turn out not to fit the situation. 18. On positive aspects in audits, Nussbaum argues they should be explicitly named to the people on site and written into the formal report — not as a preamble to negatives, but as genuine documentation of best practices that motivate further improvement. 19. He uses a parenting analogy: a child whose good behaviour is praised improves more than one whose good behaviour is ignored; adult employees respond the same way to recognition in formal documents. 20. Safety officers, internal auditors, and managers responsible for ISO 45001 compliance who want practical guidance on shifting from box-ticking to value-creating audits will find this episode directly applicable.

Listen to the show on

Apple Podcasts Spotify

Play clips from this episode More from Wandelwerker - Der erste deutsche Arbeitsschutz Podcast