Trylove · Trylove

Episode 350: THE KEEP (1983) with Tony Wagner

September 30, 2025·1 hr 24 min·7 clips

Why does a failed 1983 Nazi horror film by Michael Mann still fascinate podcasters 40 years later?

1. Try Love podcast discusses Michael Mann's 1983 supernatural horror film The Keep, the final entry in the Trilon Cinema's Nazis series, with guest Tony Wagner. 2. Hosts are Jason Daphnis, Cody Narveson, Harry Mackin, and Aaron; Tony Wagner is a returning guest who previously appeared on the Rogue One episode. 3. The episode's central debate is whether The Keep is a failed studio misfire or a punk masterpiece — Harry argues the latter, Jason the former, Aaron and Cody occupy the middle. 4. Aaron summarizes the plot: Nazi light infantry in 1941 occupy an ancient keep in the Carpathian Mountains, accidentally release an entity named Radu Molasar, and a Jewish historian named Theodore Kusa (Ian McKellen) is brought in and healed by Molasar in exchange for retrieving a talisman. 5. The production was severely troubled: a 13-week shoot became 22 weeks, the visual effects supervisor died before key effects were completed, and the film was a box office failure. 6. Tony notes The Keep is Michael Mann's only film engaging with his Jewish identity, and the panel speculates this thematic territory was abandoned after the production went badly. 7. Harry calls the film 'Tarkovsky-Friedkin crazy work' and says people who find it incoherent are 'just cowards,' arguing the dream logic is intentional and the film 'fucking whips.' 8. Jason argues the opposite: the film's successes — an incredible opening shot, the glowing cross imagery, the boat on the water — are accidents of production, not of intent, and the narrative is held together with 'tooth floss.' 9. Aaron calls the film's opening 'almost Blade Runner-esque in how drenched in neon light' and identifies the implausibly enormous keep — 'this small village houses the biggest structure ever built by human beings' — as an unintentional but effective absurdist detail. 10. Harry argues Mann's central metaphor is fully realized even if the visual rendering isn't: Molasar assembling himself bit by bit is the film itself, 'this assemblage of ideas and parts coming together fitfully and painfully.' 11. Tony identifies Ian McKellen's character arc as the most ethically interesting element: healed by the golem, he quickly decides to use it to kill Nazis, raising the question of whether hubris rather than good intentions defines all the characters. 12. Cody praises Molasar's appearance as 'a little Dr. Manhattan squid man with the nervous system' and says the creature's reveal prompted 'I'm here for this now forever.' 13. Jason argues the clearest evidence that Mann did not know what he wanted is that he didn't know how the monster should look — and the visual effects supervisor's death forced the guy-in-a-suit solution. 14. Harry accepts this but argues Mann knew exactly what he wanted the monster to mean, even if the visual rendering failed — 'it's a movie about the war for the soul of the future of humanity.' 15. Tony draws a parallel to David Lynch and Dune: a filmmaker burned by a troubled studio production, learning to maintain control afterward. 16. Harry points out the film shares DNA with Manhunter — the glowing eyes and mouth in the cave appear again in that film — and Tony agrees it feels like a transitional step toward the Manhunter sensibility. 17. Aaron reads Ian McKellen's performance as 'kind of bad and so weird' in a way that is hard to parse, while acknowledging his character's daughter is the most shortchanged by the editing cuts. 18. The episode is discursive and energetic, with Harry's enthusiastic defense generating genuine pushback from Jason and bemused partial agreement from Aaron and Cody. 19. Listeners who enjoy polarized critical debates about cult horror films and auteur filmmaking will find the episode entertaining even without having seen The Keep. 20. Listeners expecting consensus or a focused plot discussion will find the episode's free-ranging debate format and the film's own narrative murkiness challenging.

As heard by us

A messy, sharp Mann discussion that treats The Keep as a real outlier.

A roundtable on The Keep with Tony Wagner starts with a John Waters theater joke and then settles into a loose, smart argument about why the film feels unlike the rest of Michael Mann's work.

Read the full review in PlayNext →

Why you'd press play

A roundtable deep-dive into The Keep's weird, haunted detour.

Read the full recommendation in PlayNext →

Listen to the show on

Apple Podcasts Spotify

Play clips from this episode More from Trylove