The History of WWII Podcast · Ray Harris Jr

Episode 591-Jack El-Hai Interview: The Nazi and the Psychiatrist

December 24, 2025·40 min·2 clips

Kelly argued fascism could arise in America as easily as it did in Germany, Italy, and Japan.

1. The History of WWII Podcast episode 591 is an interview with Jack El-Hai about The Nazi and the Psychiatrist and the film Nuremberg. 2. Jack El-Hai is a journalist whose books include The Savant, The Lobotomist, and The Lost Brothers, and he explains why Douglas M. Kelly matters to the story. 3. The episode asks how Kelly’s work with Herman Goering and the first Nuremberg trial became a book, a screenplay, and then a film. 4. El-Hai says the project began while he was researching Walter Freeman for The Lobotomist and found a 1938 American Psychiatric Association reference to Douglas Kelly. 5. He describes Kelly as the psychiatrist who gave a magic show for other psychiatrists and later worked for the U.S. military at Nuremberg. 6. El-Hai says he spent years searching archives after Kelly died in 1958, including the National Archives and state archives, but found little. 7. He then tracked down Kelly’s oldest son, Doug, in Fairfield, California, and was invited to see 15 banker’s boxes from the family basement. 8. The boxes held artifacts such as a glass vial labeled with Herman Goering’s Pericodine tablets, plus Kelly’s notes, memos, and notebooks from Nuremberg. 9. They also contained the full medical records of the 22 German defendants and autobiographies Kelly had each man write in his own hand. 10. El-Hai says he photographed the material by hand because this was before smartphone scanners, then used the archive as the basis for the book. 11. He explains that Kelly initially thought the Nazi defendants might share a psychiatric disorder, but after months of interviews he concluded they were mostly within a normal range of personality traits. 12. That conclusion led Kelly to believe the same kinds of men existed everywhere and that what happened in Germany could happen in the United States. 13. El-Hai links that warning to Kelly’s view of 1940s America, including Jim Crow segregation and signs of fascism or incipient fascism. 14. He says Kelly proposed a practical program to keep democracy safe, including stronger critical thinking in education and less emotional response to politics. 15. El-Hai notes that Kelly even suggested mandatory psychiatric evaluations for anyone running for public office, although he does not agree with that idea. 16. The interview also emphasizes the International Military Tribunal as an international response to wartime crimes, not just a German matter. 17. El-Hai’s tone is conversational and detailed, with the host interrupting often to react to the archival finds, the movie deal, and the historical parallels. 18. The discussion moves between biography, book research, screen adaptation, and present-day political comparison without losing the interview format. 19. People interested in Nuremberg, psychiatry, and WWII history would likely want this episode. 20. Listeners wanting pure battlefield history or no current politics may skip it.

As heard by us

An interview with Jack El-Hai that connects The Nazi and the Psychiatrist to warnings about democracy, fascism, and authoritarianism.

Jack El-Hai's interview on History of World War II stays centered on The Nazi and the Psychiatrist and on the warnings he takes from Dr. Kelly's reflections on democracy, fascism, and authoritarianism.

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Why you'd press play

If you want a World War II interview that ties Nazi history to lessons about resisting fascism and authoritarianism.

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