Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth · Lenny Rachitsky

From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuo (Facebook VP, Sundial CEO, The Making of a Manager author)

·1 hr 36 min·5 clips

Julie Zhuo reveals why managers must now assemble AI 'Avengers' instead of human teams.

This episode features Julie Zhuo, former VP of Design at Facebook and author of "The Making of a Manager," in conversation with host Lenny Rachitsky. Zhuo discusses how traditional management skills are becoming essential for effectively leveraging AI tools and agents. She argues that management fundamentally involves defining a clear outcome and assembling the right resources to achieve it. Zhuo observes a trend toward flatter organizations where individuals, empowered by AI, take on multiple roles traditionally handled by specialists. She cites Google's reduction of middle managers and notes AI enables individuals to perform tasks at a competent level across various domains. At her startup, Sundial, she has eliminated dedicated product manager roles, finding that smaller, multi-skilled "builder" teams foster greater ownership and speed. She emphasizes that clarity in defining success is the most critical skill for both managing people and directing AI. A surprising insight is her view that many fast-growing AI companies currently operate on instinct rather than robust data analysis, as their rapid growth hasn't allowed time to build proper infrastructure. Zhuo introduces the principle "diagnose with data, treat with design," positioning data as a tool for understanding reality, not prescribing solutions. She also highlights AI's underutilized role as a personalized learning tool that can accelerate skill acquisition through interactive tutoring. The conversation explores how AI is changing analysis needs, such as the shift from click-based to conversation-based metrics for LLM products. Zhuo shares that her engineering team uses AI companions like ChatGPT to learn new domains, such as business analysis, by having the AI critique their understanding. The tone is conversational and reflective, blending personal anecdotes with practical management and product-building frameworks. Listeners interested in the future of work, AI integration, and lean startup management will find this episode valuable. Those seeking highly technical AI implementation details or skeptical of organizational flattening might find it less directly applicable.

As heard by us

A practical reset for managers learning to lead through change.

Julie Zhuo and Lenny focus on a management shift that feels current: AI is flattening orgs, and more people are having to think and work like individual builders again.

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Why you'd press play

You need a grounded take on managing people while AI does more of the work.

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