CIA Clinical Psychologist Ursula Wilder on Profiling World Leaders

March 29, 2023·49 min·3 clips

CIA psychologist Ursula Wilder explains that narcissism is a 'grandiose self navigating atop a sea of internal insecurity'—and that pathological narcissists explode in rage at any criticism because they're protecting themselves against shame.

Ursula Wilder works at the point where CIA psychology meets intelligence analysis. Michael Morrell introduces her as a clinical psychologist whose 26 years at the agency have moved through medical, operational, and analytic assignments. The conversation starts in a surprisingly ordinary place: they are back face-to-face in the studio after so much virtual taping, and that analog setup gives the interview a little extra charge. Morrell then lays out her background, from post-9-11 field work in the Counterterrorism Center to later work on extremist personalities at the National Counterterrorism Center. From there, they move into the Medical and Psychological Assessment Branch and its work on the psychology of world leaders. President Carter comes up as a useful example. Wilder says his use of psychological science in negotiations was unusually strong. Morrell adds his own institutional memory from PDB briefings, noting that other presidents have wanted the same kind of insight, even if they asked for it in plainer terms. Then comes the practical problem: how do you assess a leader when the psychologist is not in the room? Wilder does not dress it up as remote mind-reading. Her first move is to find a regional specialist, because personality does not float free of culture, politics, or pressure. Psychology gives one lens. Regional expertise gives the setting that makes the behavior make sense. The best assessment, in her telling, comes from putting psyche, development, personality features, and local context together. She also wants that expertise beside her in briefings, so the leader is not reduced to a personality sketch with the world stripped out.

As heard by us

A sober, practical look at how CIA psychology helps policymakers understand foreign leaders in context.

CIA clinical psychologist Ursula Wilder offers a disciplined account of how leader psychology can inform intelligence work. Her authority comes less from mystique than from the range of a 26-year CIA career that has moved through medical, operational, and analytic assignments,…

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You want a sober look at how a CIA psychologist assesses leaders she cannot sit with in the room, by pairing psych insight with regional context.

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