Fixing Fairness in the Workplace, with Lily Zheng

February 23, 2026·38 min·3 clips

What if I told you that 82% of Americans actually support diversity, but most people think only half the country agrees?

The episode begins with a striking research finding that challenges common assumptions about American attitudes toward diversity. While most people estimate that only 55% of Americans support diversity initiatives, the actual figure is 82%, revealing a significant perception gap that contributes to political polarization on workplace fairness issues. Organizational consultant Lily Zheng uses this data to frame a broader discussion about why traditional diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) programs often fail despite good intentions. The problem, according to Zheng, lies in treating DEI as an ideology to demonstrate commitment to rather than a set of measurable outcomes to achieve. Most organizations approach diversity work through what Zheng calls 'food, flags, and fun' - superficial interventions like 90-minute training sessions, cultural heritage celebrations, or bias workshops that don't address systemic issues. This approach contrasts sharply with how organizations handle other business challenges like sales targets, where they set clear goals, track progress, and hold people accountable. Zheng introduces a powerful metaphor for organizational change: people are like water, not clay. Rather than trying to mold individuals into desired behaviors, leaders should focus on designing the organizational 'container' that naturally shapes behavior. If the environment is fair, people will act fairly; if it's cutthroat, they'll act accordingly. This systems thinking approach requires leaders to first understand their current workplace culture through surveys, interviews, and even network analysis of communication patterns. However, many leaders suffer from what Zheng calls FOFO - Fear of Finding Out - avoiding difficult questions because they suspect the answers will reveal problems they're not ready to address. The next phase involves rallying support for change through effective storytelling. Rather than presenting sterile statistics about turnover rates, leaders need to connect with people emotionally by sharing specific stories about valued employees who left and the impact of their departure. This approach helps build shared understanding of why the status quo is problematic and creates motivation for change. When it comes to designing solutions, Zheng advocates for working smart rather than hard. Small, targeted interventions based on deep understanding of the system can be more effective than expensive, broad-scale training programs. For example, standardizing HR processes with clear scoring rubrics can reduce discrimination more effectively than company-wide bias training. The key is identifying the leverage points in the organizational system where small changes can create large impacts. Employee involvement in the change process is crucial, drawing on the IKEA effect - people become more attached to solutions they help create, even if the final outcome isn't exactly what they would have chosen individually. This participatory approach builds trust and buy-in while often leading to better decisions through collective wisdom. Zheng acknowledges that her own thinking has evolved, particularly around practices like removing demographic information from resumes. While this seemed like a universal best practice, recent research suggests it can actually increase discrimination in some cases, as context about career gaps or life experiences gets lost. The conversation concludes with practical advice for leaders: raise standards for fairness interventions to match those applied to other organizational changes, focus on systemic solutions rather than individual training, and be willing to engage in the messy work of understanding and changing organizational culture.

As heard by us

Fairness is treated as a system to change, not a slogan to repeat.

Workplace fairness is framed as a systems issue, not a slogan. Dave Stachowiak and Lily Zhang focus on how leaders can shape the conditions for change, why people hesitate to raise uncomfortable questions, and why organizations often jump to solutions before building enough…

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If fairness talks keep stalling, this helps you reopen them without losing the strategic thread.

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