You shouldn’t be uncomfortable with the word "sales"

July 2, 2025·53 min·4 clips

Bernard Savage argues that lawyers who avoid sales are letting clients make bad choices with inferior advisors.

Sales is the uncomfortable word here. The guest argues that professional services firms, especially law firms, still mix up marketing and business development. The host does not let that drift. He keeps bringing it back to the mechanics: what changes, who owns it, and why the industry keeps acting as if old habits will do. One target is the shop window. If good advisors refuse to be visible, the guest says clients make bad choices and someone else ends up clearing up the mess. Blunt, but useful. The conversation moves into law firms, accountants, and the slow admission that business development cannot mean stuffy networking events and annual golf days forever. Accountancy comes off as further ahead, with the guest suggesting it may be five years ahead of law, especially on technology. Then the awkward question lands: good, according to whom? Good looks like borrowing from retail, listening to clients properly, and treating feedback as a business habit rather than copy for the website. The host leans into the discomfort. Asking a busy client for feedback can feel needy, especially when the relationship is meant to feel trusted and calm. The guest pushes back. If a solicitor or accountant cannot ask for a conversation because the client is supposedly too busy, that may say more about the relationship than the diary. Being liked is not enough. The client has to believe the conversation will be worth their time, or the relationship is thinner than the professional wants to admit. There is banter around the edges. The episode wanders through career mistakes, lawyers, London, the North, Mansfield Town, and the odd aside without dropping the business point. Results matter. The close lands on challenging conventions, keeping some authenticity, and admitting that the North-and-London problem is messy rather than neatly solved.

As heard by us

A blunt case for treating visibility, client listening, and results as core parts of professional services.

This episode makes a forceful argument that professional services firms cannot afford to hide behind vague talk of marketing and relationships.

Read the full review in PlayNext →

Why you'd press play

If "sales" makes you flinch, this one goes straight at why professional services firms need to market themselves properly.

Read the full recommendation in PlayNext →

Listen to the show on

Apple Podcasts Spotify

Play clips from this episode More from Business Without BS