437| An interview with Jim Clemente

·1 hr 7 min·5 clips

Genius serial killer Robert Spangler shot his wife on Christmas Eve, then smothered his son, all while holding his fourth wife's hand.

The episode features an interview with Jim Clemente, retired FBI profiler and former New York City prosecutor, conducted by Brad Carr. Clemente begins by explaining deception detection, emphasizing the need to norm a person's idiolect and mannerisms to spot changes under stress. He discusses indicators of lying, such as overselling and perception management, where individuals alter behavior to appear truthful. The conversation covers pathological liars and psychopaths, noting their lack of empathy reduces stress cues. Clemente highlights the role of subconscious processing, citing Gavin DeBecker's 'The Gift of Fear' and a case where a nurse subconsciously avoided an attacker. He explores coercive control masked as generosity, using examples from the show 'Am I Dating a Serial Killer?' where isolation and tracking escalate danger. The interview delves into psychopathy, referencing Robert Hare's checklist and the DASH risk assessment for domestic violence. Clemente recounts the case of Robert Spangler, a genius serial killer who murdered his family and wives, manipulated by ego during FBI interviews. He contrasts interrogation methods, advocating rapport-building over torture, based on his experience at Guantanamo Bay. Clemente describes interviewing incarcerated serial offenders, noting varied dynamics and the accuracy of 'Mindhunter' depictions. He explains the biopsychosocial model of criminal behavior, combining genetics, psychology, and experiences. Clemente shares his personal background, including family losses to mob violence and his brother's role in exposing his childhood abuser, a Catholic school director. This led to Clemente prosecuting the offender and joining the FBI. He discusses therapeutic writing and public storytelling, encouraging survivors and criticizing labels like 'monster predators' that mislead about offender profiles. The episode ends with Clemente promoting his Audible works, including 'Bluebeard', and thanking Brad Carr.

As heard by us

A hard-edged interview that ties FBI deception work to a serial-killer account with ugly aftershocks.

Best Case Worst Case leans into a guest-led interview as Jim Clemente talks with Brad Carr, while Francie steps back for this one. The strongest stretch comes when Clemente keeps the deception work grounded: norm the person first, map the idiolect, then watch for shifts in…

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Why you'd press play

You get deception-detection, ego, and a serial-killer story with the Grand Canyon at the center.

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