A Thousand Natural Shocks With Gabe S. Dunn · Gabe Dunn | Diamond MPrint Productions

Bonus Bag: Tourmaline On Our Secret Queer Histories

·18 min·1 clip

Marsha P. Johnson told a judge her 'P' stood for 'Pay It No Mind'—and he dismissed the charges.

This bonus episode of Bad With Money features host Gabe S. Dunn interviewing author and artist Tourmaline about the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Tourmaline has spent two decades researching, educating about, and creating art centered on Marsha "Pay It No Mind" Johnson. The conversation explores the nuanced history of this pivotal figure in queer and trans liberation. Tourmaline explains that Marsha Johnson's middle initial "P" famously stood for "Pay It No Mind," a phrase she used when a judge asked about it. That judge, known as "Let Him Loose Bruce," dismissed the charges against her. The discussion highlights that Marsha grew up in Elizabeth, New Jersey, where queer bars like Billy's Tavern existed but faced constant police raids and repression. Tourmaline notes that laws targeting gender nonconformity, like anti-loitering statutes and "three articles of clothing" rules, were enforced for decades. Sylvia Rivera described being swept up in police arrests as a teenager at a Times Square restaurant called Bickford's. The episode references an archivist named Steve Watson who preserved important interviews with figures like Rivera. Tourmaline's friend Augusta Machado recalled that street queens of that era did not always wear full drag daily due to the severe risks. A surprising insight is that Marsha Johnson's relationship with her family was complex, involving both conflict and deep care. Tourmaline shares that Marsha's mother sometimes made harsh comments, yet also cooked large meals for Marsha's friends who visited their home in New Jersey. The episode mentions a 1992 documentary titled *Pay It No Mind*, which includes footage of Marsha discussing her life. Tourmaline emphasizes the importance of seeing historical figures like Marsha as whole people who "freedom dreamed" beyond their oppressive circumstances. The conversation pushes back against the erasure of pre-21st century trans history, noting that communities existed in places beyond New York City. Tourmaline's work aims to build a more expansive and generous understanding of Marsha Johnson's life and family. The tone is conversational and educational, blending personal reflection with historical detail. The style is interview-based, with the host guiding the guest through specific stories and archival findings. Listeners interested in LGBTQ+ history, especially the Stonewall era and its key figures, would find this episode deeply enriching. Those seeking a purely personal finance-focused episode of *Bad With Money* might want to skip this historical bonus installment.

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